Home > Game Development, Jointhesaga.com, Necromundus, OtherSpace > Thinking About: Merging +vote and +rel/rank

Thinking About: Merging +vote and +rel/rank

It’s been brought up a few times that +votes don’t yield a satisfying amount of Roleplaying Points and that the RPP Paycheck system, based on the +rel/rank relationship web standings, might give too much for the ease of earning them.

The suggestion was made to reverse this, so that +votes give more while RPP Paychecks gave less.

I think I’ve got a better idea: Eliminate an extra coded system by merging it with another. We could modify the +vote command so that it allowed you to rank a character while commending them for their RP. Each month, the rankings would reset. Yes? No? Crazy talk?

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  1. Arie Taylor
    February 4, 2010 at 1:00 pm

    More. Info. Needed. I don’t see anything wrong with the premise, but the devil’s in the details. Or the implementation, depending on how you look at it.

    • February 4, 2010 at 1:03 pm

      Well, I’m looking for feedback to develop. More. Info. Implementation would basically be: We turn off +rel/rank, we merge the functionality into +vote (including a +vote/rank score table of some kind to replace the +rel/global standings readout). After that, it’s just a matter of tweaking the +vote system to dole out RPP Paychecks rather than a monthly payout.

  2. Loki
    February 4, 2010 at 1:08 pm

    What I’m wondering is how much RPP are we going to give with each ranking or each +vote/rank (whatever we decide to call it)? Will we keep it like votes are for now, which is more RPP if two people vote/rank each other and a base amount if votes are one sided?

    • February 4, 2010 at 1:09 pm

      What are the pros and cons of each approach?

  3. Sergeytov
    February 4, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    In the name of promoting a simple solution: Why not multiply +vote RPP by 10 and divide RPP Paychecks by 4? Which should achieve the desired objective of promoting +votes over a passive RPP amount.

    These two systems are designed to do two different things, in theory. One commends the player, the other is a commentary on the character’s influence on the grid.

    Another question, while we’re at it: Where’s a +transferrpp command? We can already transfer RPP via vouchers and the like, but the absence of such a simple command is outright bizarre.

    • February 4, 2010 at 1:31 pm

      That’s a simple solution, but it might be more elegant to merge the systems – people may remember to +vote more easily than they do +rel/rank.

      As for +transferrpp command – the absence is “outright bizarre?” Really? I’m not saying it shouldn’t exist, but aren’t you overstating things a little bit? Just a little? Maybe a lot. Did you ever post a suggestion for it before now? Well, consider it posted and it’ll be added.

      When I feel less bizarre.

  4. Loki
    February 4, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Hrm…thinking of it in terms of motivation +vote is one of those things that people expect to be there as a way of advancing characters (or getting rpp for cool stuff(TM). So the standard is that some x amount of RPP will be given out if you receive votes from somebody. This could mean it kind of falls flat in the motivation area without some kind of incentive.

    The pro with extra RPP for reciprocated votes is that if you vote for each other then you get a little bonus which /could/ encourage more people to reciprocate votes. It might be nice if there was a way to see how many votes were reciprocated though. Something like..you received x number of votes so you have been given y amount of RPP. z number of those that you voted for voted for you in return so you have been given zz amount of RPP as a bonus.

    The cons of doing something like this could be that people get frustrated if they don’t receive votes in return or it could add pressure to vote for people when you might not have wanted to.

    Another approach we could take is the route of the RPPaycheck. In that instance you recieve RPP for ranking and for being ranked. So rather than a “You get a bonus” it returns a “You ranked x people and y people ranked you: You’ve been given z RPP for this cycle. So in that vein, maybe a small amount of RPP could be given for voting for another (incentive to vote) and a larger amount for receiving a vote? So something like You voted for 1 person, you get 2 RPP for this. 1 person voted for you back, you get 4(or 3 maybe?) RPP for this. Your RPP total for the month is 6 (or 5?).

    The pros of this is that you get rewarded then for giving votes and receiving votes.

    The cons of this again could be discouragement if you don’t receive as many votes as you put out.

  5. Arie Taylor
    February 4, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    I dislike the reciprocal voting for the reason Loki cited above — if I don’t feel someone’s up to snuff and don’t vote for them (this is rare for me, mind) why should *I* earn less RPP for a vote that they give me?

    And nobody ever receives as many votes as they put out, at least not in my experience. In months where I’ve gotten 10 votes, you can guarantee I’ve put out 2 or 3x that many.

    Also, I’ve been pondering this whole one vote a month thing. What if you could +vote for the same person multiple times in a month? Within reason, of course — someone having 100 votes from the same alt would be subject to scrutiny. But, like. There are people that I RP with more than others. Why should there not be any extra benefit to having multiple scenes with the same person? Also: some of our players, such as the European ones, have a very select few that they are even *able* to RP with regularly. If you could vote for someone more than once a month, well… it evens things out a little for people on at odd hours, somewhat antisocial characters, and others that might otherwise RP with a select group of people.

    Anyway. Back to pondering. And cleaning.

    • February 4, 2010 at 1:57 pm

      I’m open to the idea of multiple +votes in a single month – maybe one per week?

  6. Sergeytov
    February 4, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    One major perk of keeping +rel and +vote separate is the passive versus active RPP accumulation.

    I think most people here agree that ‘active’ accumulation should probably be worth more (+vote and the like). Passive (via +rel/RP Paycheck) allows a stable gain, it’s greatest benefit is to new players who are still in the RPP development phase. While tying systems together may be more elegant (a point that could be disputed), as proposed, such a system has the very real possibility of substantially slowing newbie advancement, which means fewer skills, fewer action cards, and less ability to easily get involved by playing their own event cards (and arguably it’s the newbies who have the most potential benefit from event cards).

  7. ShanG
    February 4, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    Examining this idea, we have two commands right now:

    1. +vote/commend (=)
    2. +rel/rank =

    And you’re wanting to merge these two commands into a single one, with 3 parameters for , , and . Say like…

    +vote/ (=)
    or
    +vote = (/)
    or some other combination of +’s and =’s and /’s.

    Then both commands place a ‘marker’ on the target player that gives them points.

    Voting pays out once per vote, at the end of the month. The target gets a lump sum, and then the list is cleared out and you can vote again.
    Ranking pays out once per week on a continuing basis, and is stepped based on how many overall votes you have. Rank doesn’t expire, but you can change how you’ve ranked someone at any time.

    So to combine elements from each… I like how +rel pays out once per week, rather than once per month, because it’s more immediate and constant. And I also like how I can rank someone, and it will keep paying out without me needing to constantly update it. On the other hand, permanent rankings result in you getting points because somebody ranked you once a year ago. The tier system also means that not every vote counts equally, and I dislike that.

    My idea would be something like this:
    1. You get a number of points based on how many votes you’ve cast in addition to how many people have voted for you.
    2. Votes pay out on a shorter period, once per week.
    3. Each vote you cast lasts for more than one period before expiring. So say a vote is good for 3 weeks, or about one month, that person gets points on the next three cycles.
    4. You can vote for someone again before the time is up, and change your rating or comment, which would reset the timer before it expires.

    So you’d get points in a more constant stream, rather than with one huge chunk at the end of the month, and you would be encouraged to vote for people when you roleplay with them rather than waiting until the end of the month. (Possibly the votes could ‘fade out’ where you’d get less and less points depending on how long ago they voted for you.)

    Also, Dizzy would like me to share her suggestion: She was thinking something along the lines of, TotalVotes = TotalVotes/2 + ThisMonthsVotes, then you have a ranking system that does both (except it doesn’t specify friend or foe).

    • ShanG
      February 4, 2010 at 3:11 pm

      Another note I wanted to add

      The paycheck system has a set minimum that you get if you recieved at least one vote. I like that, because it means that everybody has the same starting point, and mitigates the wild swings between getting 8 points this cycle and 50 points next one.

  8. Loki
    February 4, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    I think the question here is “Is passive accumulation a good thing if what we’re really trying to promote is more RP?”

  9. Loki
    February 4, 2010 at 3:23 pm

    I like Shan’s idea. The only issue I have is with implimentation. I get the math part of it, that’s not the issue. But are we talking about keeping three or four lists (one for each week of active votes)? Because then there’d need to be a way to mark them as new, old, older, oldest and after a week of being ‘oldest’ have that one go away, or something like that. This is how my mind sees it at least. Then the code would have to say something like: If(oldest) {give 1 point per vote and delete this list}, if(older) {give 2 points per vote and change to oldest}, if(old) {give 3 points per vote and change to older}, if(new) {give 4 points per vote and change to old}, {create new new}. Then have it add everything together so {oldest + older + old + new = total} Or something like that. I could be way off though.

    **If clarification needs to be given for my really pseudo pseudo code just say so. I can try and explain it a little better if needs be.

    • Arie Taylor
      February 4, 2010 at 4:44 pm

      Urgh. This is… needlessly complicated. Seriously. If we want votes to last over multiple cycles, cool. Vote decay is just… well, needlessly complicated is the best way I can think of to put it.

  10. Rarrisaurus
    February 4, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Rarsonally, I think you’re probably all overcomplicating it. Math has come into play. This does not bode well.

    The most simple solution would probably be to just permit multiple +votes per month, but set an upper limit on the amount of RPP a single player can accrue (either per month, or just a set limit period).

    That way, people still get the praise and feedback for good RP, but without the worry of RPP skyrocketing to near limitless values.

    If you spend some RPP and you’re active, then the +votes for RP will top it back up again. If you’re not active and not getting +votes, then your RPP well remains dry. Equally, if you have nothing to spend it on, you can save it for a rainy day and just bask in the +voteness.

    I suppose that’d mean that each +vote would have to be worth a set amount of RPP until the upper limit is reached.

    • Arie Taylor
      February 4, 2010 at 4:47 pm

      I do like the idea of there being a limit on how much you can rake in per month. A set limit period wouldn’t serve much purpose — you could simply clear out your ‘well’ by purchasing an +inv full of alt vouchers. 🙂

  11. Loki
    February 4, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    There are numbers involved, Rar, and so math is going to be involved whether people like that or not. But you’re right, the math doesn’t have to be complicated. And that was really my point. I think that votes decaying over time is really very overly complicated, not only for players but for the coders too. I’m not against a vote cycle once a week or once every two weeks though with a larger amount of RPP than votes are giving now.

    • February 4, 2010 at 5:21 pm

      Weekly RP Notables might be more interesting than monthly, anyway.

  12. Rarrisaurus
    February 4, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    Arie Taylor :A set limit period wouldn’t serve much purpose — you could simply clear out your ‘well’ by purchasing an +inv full of alt vouchers.

    Loki :There are numbers involved, Rar, and so math is going to be involved whether people like that or not.

    True enough!

    But once you have an idea of where this is going, you can work out the kinks later. I mean, obviously, you don’t want the “RPP Dump” scenario which Arie points out – but nor do you want RPP becoming endless to the point of ludicrous triviality.

    And there’s always going to be an element of math (/shudder) too, although I suspect most of it will remain behind the scenes and away from the delicate gazes of the playerfolk.

    You just really don’t want to go down this path: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9358/osdemotivator.jpg

    😀

  13. Rarrisaurus
    February 4, 2010 at 5:37 pm

    Wes Platt :Weekly RP Notables might be more interesting than monthly, anyway.

    Could you not replace +rel/rank with a version that sort of keeps track of +votes and ranks people accordingly with the number of votes they have?

    So, if Player A gets 10 votes at the end of the first week of March, and Player B gets 8 by the end of the first week, +rel would show Player A as the most… relatable(?)… character of the month at that point?

    I mean it’s pretty much the same principle as harvesting favorable +rel/rank scores anyhow. Plus you could reset it at the end of each month, only have to announce the RP Notables FOR the month, and it’d be accurate to current RP trends and active peoples.

    In fact, as a bonus, it’d also kind of become a list of who’s active on the game for that period of time, which could be as neat as it might be useful.

    Obviously, the number of votes wouldn’t be shown, but you’d know who currently had the most by their position on the “leaderboard” for that day/week/month.

    Last idea for you to ponder. 😀

  14. Loki
    February 4, 2010 at 6:03 pm

    Well..+rel/rank is for how your character relates to others ICly. Just because you RP with a character doesn’t mean you like them necessarily. They could be your worst enemy (because some people actually like having drama ICly). So just because you gave them a vote doesn’t mean your characters are buddy-buddy either. I often give votes to players I resepct simply for the fact that they played an awesome bad guy. I still rank them as an enemy.

  15. Loki
    February 4, 2010 at 6:05 pm

    Rarrisaurus :
    You just really don’t want to go down this path: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9358/osdemotivator.jpg

    But calculus fixes all!

    J/K 😛

  16. Rarhamut the Wise
    February 5, 2010 at 7:10 am

    Loki :Well..+rel/rank is for how your character relates to others ICly. Just because you RP with a character doesn’t mean you like them necessarily.

    Do you really need a coded system to remind you who your character does and does not like, though? Equally, do you really need a coded system to subjectively tell the playerbase who they should and should not like based on the opinions of a few people? 🙂

    Personally, I think you do not. +rel/rank has always seemed to me to be more of a neat toy than any serious reflection of any real IC attitudes.

    Heck, all it took on Chia was someone with an axe to grind against someone else OOCly and you had generally “good” characters being globally rated as more disliked than people who were actually meant to be antagonists (who themselves were usually uprated because people thought they were great to be around).

    Replacing (or at least supplanting it) with a +vote leaderboard kind of thing would at least give a snapshop of who is currently active in regards to RP (as one would assume +votes equal active RP, no?) and who could perhaps USE some RP if they’re not on there.

    So sayeth Bahamut the Wise.

  17. Loki
    February 5, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    I’m not disagreeing with you on that. On that note, relationship system was around long before I came to play on OS let alone before I became a staffer here.

    My point is this:

    What the system was meant to do:

    Give players a way to find out (and to let each other know) how their characters relate other characters ICly.

    What really happens:

    *points to the previous Rar Post*
    I completely agree. I’ve seen people abuse the system.

    Honestly, I’m not sure it is a good idea to have a system that says “This is how well everybody relates to you OOCly”. It has a very negative connotation for the people that get ranked low on that and can be very discouraging if taken the wrong way.

    I do think that a merger type thing should take the better parts of both systems to combine.

    This is what /I/ like from both systems:

    – Being rewarded once a week (RPPaycheck)
    – Being rewarded a slightly larger amount (RPPaycheck)
    – Clearing the board with each cycle (+vote)
    – Commenting to let a player know when they’ve done something awesome (+vote)

    And these are the features I’d be inclined to keep in a system that merges the two.

  18. Rarriness
    February 8, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    Well, that was the direction of logic I was hoping to you in: instead of saying “I like X but not Y”, or “I like Y but not X”, you’d end up saying “I like Z… with blackjack… and hookers.”

    I don’t think you need to merge them; just evolve them into something shiny. (Brody likes shiny.)

  19. Rarriness
    February 8, 2010 at 7:00 pm

    *to point you in.

    “Proofread Carefully To See If You Any Words Out.”

  20. Loki
    February 9, 2010 at 2:03 am

    *hides the cards and hookers* Man, you have to quit looking in my closets…those are private areas. 😦

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